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[Music]

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welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast

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from Australia for science and reason

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[Music]

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yes it's the skeptic zone podcast

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episode number 542 for the 10th of March

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2019 Richardson is here with you from

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Sydney Australia where it's been getting

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just that little bit cooler and a big

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THANK YOU to Maynard who stepped in at

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the last minute and hosted the show last

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week at the time the time I needed to do

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the voice work for the introductions and

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so on I really couldn't talk and as

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you'll hear in this week's show recorded

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during the week I still sound a little

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bit under the weather but I'm nearly

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better it's so frustrating and for those

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people who've recently had the flu or

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the cold or something like that I guess

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one of the things that really really

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hits home is how frustrating it is not

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to be as active or active at all and not

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to be productive because apart from

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anything else it's simply hard to think

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when you're very sick and you're

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miserable it's hard to read books it's

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hard to do any sort of work at all so

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thank you again a very much Maynard

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coming up later on in the show you'll

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hear about Maenads upcoming gig in

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Sydney our just under a week away and if

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you're a fan of the skeptic zone and

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Maynard's work or you're a fan of

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Maynard Maynard calm today you this is a

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great opportunity for you to go along

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and support maenad in person but coming

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up on this week's show we have New

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Zealand dowser dollars down the drain we

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interview the chair of New Zealand

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skeptics Craig Shearer about how

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Wellington ratepayers are funding water

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divining in the form of a contractor

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using divining rods as part of their job

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to find underground pipes just when we

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thought we'd never see water to finding

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a water dowsing again well you know what

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I'm not too surprised I guess I mean

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it's something that's going to be around

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well I guess it's going to be around as

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long as people are around water divining

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and water dowsing following that it's a

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story from the Australian skeptics about

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the late Mike Willis see the TV

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journalists the pioneering TV

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journalists who died a very short time

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ago at the age of 76 he was a very

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well-known face and name here in

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Australia for his TV journalism over

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many many years and for much of that

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time he had a very positive relationship

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with the Australian skeptics and

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skepticism in general and then sort of

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went south a little bit when he well

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found God and suddenly his reports and

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so on were somewhat less than skeptical

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you'll find out why later on in the show

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then to round things up I head to Sydney

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skeptics in the pub where in fact I gave

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a talk in the last week but we speak to

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pub goers about old folk remedies what

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do they remember from when they were

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kids this cue is that or if you've got a

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sore shoulder put this on it or if you

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do this this will happen those sort of

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interesting old folk remedies do pubs

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have any from their past stay tuned at

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the end of the show for more

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announcements from me but now it's time

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for me to run downstairs a bit more

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ginger and lemon tea a bit more ginger

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and lemon tea - just soothe the throat a

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little bit while I do that I hope you

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enjoy the skeptic zone

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[Music]

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and joining me now on the line all the

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way from Auckland in New Zealand it's

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the chair of the New Zealand skeptics

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Craig Shearer hello Craig

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how I Richard how you doing well just

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getting over the dreaded cold but not

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doing too bad

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look there's a story just hit the

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interwebs about something which we

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thought we'd never see again

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you know really about water divining and

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water dowsing coming out of New Zealand

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before we get into that can you give our

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audience a bit of a background for our

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new listeners about the New Zealand

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skeptics yeah I guess we're very much

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like the Australian skeptics except

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smaller and and of course good things

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come in small packages so we've been

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around since the late 80s which I guess

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is not quite as long as the Australian

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skeptics but but we do have quite a

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heritage and yeah over the years we've

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we've done some interesting and

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investigations as there's the kind of a

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sort of few unique things here in New

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Zealand like there's you you probably

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know about our our mower bird that was

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killed off by the first inhabitants of

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New Zealand back about six hundred years

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ago but there are people who claim that

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mothers still exist well that's

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interesting it's sort of like in

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Australia we have the thylacine or the

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Tasmanian tiger which was hunted to

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extinction by the 1930s but every now

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and then somebody will come along and

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say I saw one I swear I saw one yeah

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indeed indeed one Australia's a big

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place surely one of the biggest land

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birds that's ever been known which was

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as you said became extinct but there are

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still people in New Zealand claiming

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that they've seen one huh yeah yeah what

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we've been drinking though and of course

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New Zealand skeptics like the Australian

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skeptics have regular meetings and

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conventions conferences yesterday yes we

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had a one last year in

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and we had Ian Brice from your neck of

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the woods no everyone talked us he was

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very interesting and this year it will

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be somewhere in the South Ireland so you

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know that'll be fun

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well that's very enticing because three

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years ago I think it was in that general

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vicinity of time I was very very

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grateful to be invited to speak at the

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New Zealand skeptics convention

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conference which was in Queenstown as

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far as I remember beautiful scenery and

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I was there with susan gerbic from

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guerrilla skepticism I know and Susan's

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had a lot of success over the past week

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hasn't she she said yeah she certainly

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psychic care with with Mark Edward oh my

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goodness me and that then that is an

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ongoing story and I'm sure we'll be

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hearing about more more goings-on with

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that and other adventures in the

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not-too-distant future anyway let's have

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a look at this interesting story coming

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out of New Zealand now water divining

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has long been a fascinating topic for me

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personally and it's very dear to the

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heart of Australian skeptics because

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it's one of the reasons the skeptical

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movement started in Australia look what

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I think I'll do Craig I think I will

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read now the story the report has

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published on the newsroom website New

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Zealand and then I'll come back to you

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this is from the newsroom website

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newsroom Co God NZ published on the 6th

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of March by farah hancock wellington

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wellington ratepayers are funding a

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pseudo scientific method to find buried

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water pipes the contractor downer and

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the Wellington City Council are not

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concerned at the public's perception

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that their money has been spent on

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disproved science rather than use

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electronic equipment are down a

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contractor working on a Wellington City

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Council project used two copper rods to

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tell him where pipes lay the method

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known as dowsing has been scientifically

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proven to give results no better than

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random chance sometimes called water

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divining or water witching it involves

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rods or a forked stick when water is

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present the rods will stick is said to

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move in the dowsers hands some

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practitioners believe this is because of

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a power of the rods others think water

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can send energy through the ground which

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the dowser senses gold who goes by that

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name was returning from lunch in January

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and walking down Willow Street in

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central Wellington when he witnessed the

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dowsing there was this guy in a high-vis

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vest using dowsing rods he was stepping

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out onto the road until they crossed

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over each other and then bent over and

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painted an X on the ground I was shocked

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to see dowsing rods being used I

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actually asked him who was contracting

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this work and what they were doing he

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said it was the Wellington City Council

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Gould said three or four other down of

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staff were present any of them would

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have seen him doing this and nobody was

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looking at him sideways going what are

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they doing

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don't be so embarrassing or anything

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like that dowsing rods represent another

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tool in the tool bag according to down a

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management New Zealand skeptics chair

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Craig Shira contacted the company when

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he was made aware of the dowsing

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he said initially the company

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and aware staff were using it but said

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checking confirmed it was used daily

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down at ol Shira the method is safe and

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it has no plan to ban staff from using

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it the choice to use it was up to the

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individual employees we sort of made the

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point to them that this is a

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pseudoscience and in the modern age we

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didn't think companies should be

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promoting this particularly when public

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money is being spent said Shira he asked

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Donna if records of accuracy were kept

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and was told they weren't I think

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probably what's going on is that the

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employee is using intuition and past

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experience to come up with an idea about

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where things might be located down as

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general management of business and

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excellence and reputation Brook Dahlberg

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confirmed to newsroom downer doesn't

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keep records of accuracy we do not

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actively promote this practice dowsing

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however from time to time our teams may

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use this practice if it is safe there is

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no additional cost to the customer and

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when used in conjunction with technology

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and service plans

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when asked if Donna was concerned about

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the public perception of rate payer

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money being used on a technique

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considered pseudoscience

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she said no Wellington City Council

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which is responsible for the use of its

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rate payers money was contacted by

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newsroom and asked whether it had

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discussed the issue with Donna's how it

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felt about rate payer money being used

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for pseudoscience and if any mechanism

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was going to be put in place to stop it

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happening in the future its response was

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we have spoken with Donna and we are

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happy with the response they have given

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you when pressed for its response rather

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than Downers it said it hadn't no

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further comment to make other councils

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do not use dowsing when Auckland's water

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care was asked several questions in 2017

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through an official informations Act

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request a curt twelve word response was

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given water Care does not use this

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technique the company uses sophisticated

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electronic devices

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yesterday Water K confirmed to newsroom

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this was still the case several other

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Official Information Act

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were made in 2017 about the use of

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dowsing to various councils through the

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fYI website responses ranged from no to

275
00:12:32,670 --> 00:12:30,520
not being aware if it had been used few

276
00:12:34,890 --> 00:12:32,680
councils said in the past it may have

277
00:12:37,590 --> 00:12:34,900
been used scientists think the movement

278
00:12:39,510 --> 00:12:37,600
of the dowsing rods or sticks is due to

279
00:12:41,910 --> 00:12:39,520
what's called the ideomotor response

280
00:12:44,370 --> 00:12:41,920
where people's subconscious minds

281
00:12:46,500 --> 00:12:44,380
influence their bodies to move without

282
00:12:48,300 --> 00:12:46,510
them consciously realizing it's

283
00:12:50,670 --> 00:12:48,310
happening this is similar to how

284
00:12:53,250 --> 00:12:50,680
scientists explain how we G boards

285
00:12:54,690 --> 00:12:53,260
appear to work several studies have been

286
00:12:59,490 --> 00:12:54,700
completed to test where the dowsing

287
00:13:03,330 --> 00:12:59,500
works amongst them a 1948 New Zealand

288
00:13:06,300 --> 00:13:03,340
study tested 75 douses none had results

289
00:13:09,450 --> 00:13:06,310
more reliable than chance in 1991 a

290
00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:09,460
German study offered a u.s. $10,000

291
00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:12,610
prize 30 dowsers were tested for their

292
00:13:17,370 --> 00:13:14,410
ability to find pipes with running water

293
00:13:18,870 --> 00:13:17,380
buried under a field their results were

294
00:13:23,130 --> 00:13:18,880
no better than chance and the prize was

295
00:13:25,260 --> 00:13:23,140
never given out in 1990 a study of $500

296
00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:25,270
found six of the test subjects had a

297
00:13:30,060 --> 00:13:27,610
high rate of success finding water pipes

298
00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:30,070
however these statistical methods of the

299
00:13:35,610 --> 00:13:33,130
study have since generated criticism and

300
00:13:38,610 --> 00:13:35,620
as an aside of course I'll mention that

301
00:13:40,740 --> 00:13:38,620
in 1980 there was a major test of water

302
00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:40,750
diviners here in Australia headed up by

303
00:13:45,390 --> 00:13:43,450
James Randi and since then there have

304
00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:45,400
been other water divining tests here in

305
00:13:51,870 --> 00:13:48,130
Australia with many many water diviners

306
00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:51,880
the results coming to chance alone we

307
00:13:57,270 --> 00:13:54,490
read on professional dowsers do operate

308
00:14:02,190 --> 00:13:57,280
in New Zealand grand virtual says he has

309
00:14:05,700 --> 00:14:02,200
a 99.9 percent success rate and can find

310
00:14:07,830 --> 00:14:05,710
hot or cold water he offers his services

311
00:14:10,590 --> 00:14:07,840
in New Zealand and abroad and says he

312
00:14:14,100 --> 00:14:10,600
can even doubt from a helicopter he

313
00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:14,110
describes his ability as a gift which

314
00:14:19,770 --> 00:14:17,530
came to him late in life I am connected

315
00:14:22,050 --> 00:14:19,780
with the magnetic field the North and

316
00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:22,060
the South Pole I can go onto a property

317
00:14:26,550 --> 00:14:24,130
that doesn't matter what size it is I

318
00:14:29,130 --> 00:14:26,560
will find every bit of water on that

319
00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:29,140
property I can decipher if it's hot or

320
00:14:34,590 --> 00:14:32,170
cold and how deep it is to get to it

321
00:14:37,740 --> 00:14:34,600
he said he had no problems finding water

322
00:14:41,550 --> 00:14:37,750
in pipes gold who witnessed the Downers

323
00:14:43,350 --> 00:14:41,560
dowser in action said he's since in the

324
00:14:45,420 --> 00:14:43,360
footpath and part of the road was

325
00:14:48,540 --> 00:14:45,430
excavated close to where the downer

326
00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:48,550
contractor marked the spot he doesn't

327
00:14:53,250 --> 00:14:51,130
know if a water pipe was found if that

328
00:14:56,280 --> 00:14:53,260
pipe wasn't there the extra effort

329
00:14:58,170 --> 00:14:56,290
needed to dig up and discover it wasn't

330
00:15:01,710 --> 00:14:58,180
there that's a cost of using dowsing

331
00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:01,720
rods New Zealand skeptics chair Shira

332
00:15:06,930 --> 00:15:04,450
says he's speaking with the media now

333
00:15:08,820 --> 00:15:06,940
after giving down a time to respond to

334
00:15:10,710 --> 00:15:08,830
emails regarding the January incident

335
00:15:13,260 --> 00:15:10,720
and talking internally without the New

336
00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:13,270
Zealand skeptic members he said he

337
00:15:18,030 --> 00:15:15,130
received lengthy responses back from

338
00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:18,040
downer which stressed safety and oddly

339
00:15:22,590 --> 00:15:20,050
included two paragraphs about Dallas

340
00:15:24,090 --> 00:15:22,600
health and safety strategy we are

341
00:15:26,460 --> 00:15:24,100
pleased they got back to us with a

342
00:15:28,500 --> 00:15:26,470
serious response I think it would be

343
00:15:30,630 --> 00:15:28,510
good if they took our concerns more

344
00:15:33,390 --> 00:15:30,640
seriously and looked into the practice

345
00:15:41,090 --> 00:15:33,400
and realized that it actually provided

346
00:15:46,230 --> 00:15:43,800
so there's the story Craig there's a

347
00:15:48,030 --> 00:15:46,240
story as reported and it's good that

348
00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:48,040
gold and yourself get to make some

349
00:15:52,610 --> 00:15:50,530
comments this must have taken you a bit

350
00:15:55,230 --> 00:15:52,620
by surprise to have all this happening

351
00:15:57,750 --> 00:15:55,240
yeah well yeah well gold was the guy who

352
00:16:01,740 --> 00:15:57,760
actually spotted it and in for reference

353
00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:01,750
gold is actually passed chairpersons

354
00:16:06,660 --> 00:16:04,930
Iran skeptics so but he lives down in

355
00:16:10,470 --> 00:16:06,670
Wellington and he happened to be walking

356
00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:10,480
to work one day and spotted an employee

357
00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:12,970
or a company called downer and I believe

358
00:16:16,590 --> 00:16:14,410
they're actually an Australian company

359
00:16:20,700 --> 00:16:16,600
but they were a New Zealand as well

360
00:16:24,150 --> 00:16:20,710
right and they are basically sort of

361
00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:24,160
contractors to City Council's and other

362
00:16:29,700 --> 00:16:26,890
stuff here so and I believe they were

363
00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:29,710
contracted to do some digging up of

364
00:16:35,670 --> 00:16:33,010
footpath as in order to replace water

365
00:16:37,770 --> 00:16:35,680
pipes underneath and so gold happened to

366
00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:37,780
be walking to work and he spotted this

367
00:16:43,230 --> 00:16:40,330
guy using a pair of divining rods and

368
00:16:44,650 --> 00:16:43,240
you know as you imagine they were the

369
00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:44,660
crossing and then yes

370
00:16:50,380 --> 00:16:47,090
we got somebody to spray spray the

371
00:16:53,350 --> 00:16:50,390
footpath where they crossed and so gold

372
00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:53,360
was a little ingredient that's like oh

373
00:17:00,100 --> 00:16:56,210
my goodness we've got a water divider

374
00:17:03,850 --> 00:17:00,110
here so yes he tweeted that out and and

375
00:17:06,490 --> 00:17:03,860
one of our committee members popped up

376
00:17:08,050 --> 00:17:06,500
the air and and she actually made

377
00:17:11,079 --> 00:17:08,060
contact with the Wellington City Council

378
00:17:13,660 --> 00:17:11,089
and said hey what's going on and and

379
00:17:14,710 --> 00:17:13,670
they were kind of the city oh well you

380
00:17:16,630 --> 00:17:14,720
know you should go and talk to downer

381
00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:16,640
because they are actually our

382
00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:20,810
contractors and so yeah so she rang them

383
00:17:25,030 --> 00:17:22,850
and yes that was indeed what happened

384
00:17:26,949 --> 00:17:25,040
and and so but they didn't wanted me to

385
00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:26,959
make any further comments so we decided

386
00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:28,850
that we would actually contact downer

387
00:17:34,900 --> 00:17:31,610
and ask them a few questions about this

388
00:17:36,610 --> 00:17:34,910
and in with her what we actually saw

389
00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:36,620
happen actually did happen and and

390
00:17:41,140 --> 00:17:38,210
weather was a common practice and all

391
00:17:43,450 --> 00:17:41,150
that sort of thing and and and it really

392
00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:43,460
just the the response kind of astounded

393
00:17:49,450 --> 00:17:47,450
me in that it was it was really all

394
00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:49,460
about saying well this is a safe

395
00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:51,770
practice well yes yes that's that's

396
00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:53,930
interesting because as we just heard in

397
00:17:58,720 --> 00:17:56,170
in the the reading of the other story

398
00:18:01,450 --> 00:17:58,730
they seem to be obsessed with health and

399
00:18:03,580 --> 00:18:01,460
safety which is good is admirable and

400
00:18:06,780 --> 00:18:03,590
they certainly please they are but I

401
00:18:09,700 --> 00:18:06,790
think they're missing the point somewhat

402
00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:09,710
and we and and it's really interesting

403
00:18:15,970 --> 00:18:13,250
to to read the the conversation we have

404
00:18:19,060 --> 00:18:15,980
with them which is not all was not all

405
00:18:20,590 --> 00:18:19,070
published but we really did sort of bend

406
00:18:23,670 --> 00:18:20,600
over backwards to say hey look this is

407
00:18:25,900 --> 00:18:23,680
pseudoscience we really don't want to

408
00:18:31,210 --> 00:18:25,910
take this to the media and make you a

409
00:18:32,740 --> 00:18:31,220
laughing story have to and then they

410
00:18:34,060 --> 00:18:32,750
basically came back and said look no

411
00:18:37,540 --> 00:18:34,070
we're not going to tell her employees

412
00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:37,550
they can't do this so and yeah we had a

413
00:18:42,610 --> 00:18:40,730
media spokesperson who was a mediator

414
00:18:45,580 --> 00:18:42,620
journalist who was quite interested in

415
00:18:47,170 --> 00:18:45,590
the story so she she wrote it up and

416
00:18:50,050 --> 00:18:47,180
yeah does seem to have a bit of traction

417
00:18:51,790 --> 00:18:50,060
and I go contacted this morning by

418
00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:51,800
another media outlet who are interested

419
00:18:56,380 --> 00:18:54,530
taking it up as well so it could be that

420
00:18:58,120 --> 00:18:56,390
this is going to get a quite a bit of

421
00:19:01,900 --> 00:18:58,130
traction and

422
00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:01,910
that really will sort of force the City

423
00:19:07,290 --> 00:19:05,450
Council I think and down there to to at

424
00:19:09,070 --> 00:19:07,300
least make some sort of a comment and

425
00:19:10,990 --> 00:19:09,080
figure out what they're going to do

426
00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:11,000
about it and one would hope that they're

427
00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:14,690
going to actually stop using this

428
00:19:19,390 --> 00:19:16,250
practice and one of the things I told

429
00:19:21,370 --> 00:19:19,400
the the journalist was that well look

430
00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:21,380
this is really this has been tested and

431
00:19:26,860 --> 00:19:24,770
and I actually told them all about the

432
00:19:29,740 --> 00:19:26,870
experience that the Australian epics

433
00:19:32,530 --> 00:19:29,750
back in 1980 with eddakath James Randi

434
00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:32,540
when you guys you would have been you

435
00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:33,650
would have been in short pants then

436
00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:38,690
Richard Lee was yeah we made actually

437
00:19:43,090 --> 00:19:41,450
did the challenge with all those people

438
00:19:46,090 --> 00:19:43,100
who thought that they actually could do

439
00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:46,100
dowsing and be successful and it turned

440
00:19:50,890 --> 00:19:47,690
out that their results were just no

441
00:19:53,260 --> 00:19:50,900
better than chance and yes it's been

442
00:19:54,970 --> 00:19:53,270
it's been shown to be pseudoscience it's

443
00:19:57,360 --> 00:19:54,980
been shown that it doesn't work we know

444
00:20:00,250 --> 00:19:57,370
how it works is the ideomotor effect and

445
00:20:02,470 --> 00:20:00,260
yeah to have it have it happening in the

446
00:20:05,350 --> 00:20:02,480
21st century geena's rather astounding

447
00:20:08,020 --> 00:20:05,360
well I think what's good about it is

448
00:20:09,970 --> 00:20:08,030
that if from the point of view of gold

449
00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:09,980
is not only did he happen to see it that

450
00:20:13,660 --> 00:20:11,330
he's actually done something about it

451
00:20:15,820 --> 00:20:13,670
he's reported it he's made a fuss and

452
00:20:18,820 --> 00:20:15,830
I'm behooves us all to keep our eyes and

453
00:20:22,810 --> 00:20:18,830
our ears open and who knows it might

454
00:20:24,550 --> 00:20:22,820
even result in a a media event where you

455
00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:24,560
can actually publicly test some water

456
00:20:28,660 --> 00:20:27,170
diviners I mean yeah it has worked in

457
00:20:30,220 --> 00:20:28,670
this country before we've got some

458
00:20:33,370 --> 00:20:30,230
traction out of doing it and it's an

459
00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:33,380
interesting day yeah it is in the one

460
00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:35,690
good thing about this is there's I can't

461
00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:37,730
see there's anything anything political

462
00:20:45,390 --> 00:20:40,250
or controversial about this yes it's not

463
00:20:47,530 --> 00:20:45,400
like nothing like like global warming or

464
00:20:49,900 --> 00:20:47,540
intelligent design of creationism or

465
00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:49,910
evolution that's it's just just does

466
00:20:53,710 --> 00:20:51,650
water divining work or not

467
00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:53,720
yeah yeah it's it's it's what we call

468
00:21:00,760 --> 00:20:55,730
one of the good old-fashioned good old

469
00:21:04,180 --> 00:21:00,770
faithful topic skeptic topics you know

470
00:21:06,700 --> 00:21:04,190
it make warms the heart we think about

471
00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:06,710
these great topics or Craig or power to

472
00:21:10,460 --> 00:21:08,210
you if there are going to be any further

473
00:21:12,230 --> 00:21:10,470
developments please keep me in the loop

474
00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:12,240
in the loop and especially if it looks

475
00:21:16,070 --> 00:21:14,490
like there's going to be a test a water

476
00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:16,080
divining test in the offing I'm more

477
00:21:21,830 --> 00:21:19,770
than happy to um you know aid you with

478
00:21:23,210 --> 00:21:21,840
my experience in any way I can now how

479
00:21:25,310 --> 00:21:23,220
can people around the world and

480
00:21:26,510 --> 00:21:25,320
especially in New Zealand catch up with

481
00:21:29,539 --> 00:21:26,520
what's going on with the New Zealand

482
00:21:32,270 --> 00:21:29,549
skeptics well we have a bunch of outlets

483
00:21:35,110 --> 00:21:32,280
sexually the probably the most active of

484
00:21:37,970 --> 00:21:35,120
us ours is just on Facebook we've got a

485
00:21:40,070 --> 00:21:37,980
page or a New Zealand skeptics page on

486
00:21:42,980 --> 00:21:40,080
Facebook and we're also on on Twitter

487
00:21:45,740 --> 00:21:42,990
where we're very active we also got a

488
00:21:48,980 --> 00:21:45,750
website which we struggle to keep up to

489
00:21:51,110 --> 00:21:48,990
date as many organizations do but if you

490
00:21:55,070 --> 00:21:51,120
want to check us out we're at skeptics

491
00:21:56,779 --> 00:21:55,080
indeed alright so there's the word folks

492
00:22:00,080 --> 00:21:56,789
that got linked it all that in the show

493
00:22:02,990 --> 00:22:00,090
notes and please keep me up to date as

494
00:22:06,740 --> 00:22:03,000
to the Canora convention your conference

495
00:22:09,140 --> 00:22:06,750
later on yeah yeah we would we just love

496
00:22:11,299 --> 00:22:09,150
having Australians come over and attend

497
00:22:13,610 --> 00:22:11,309
the conference because it's just eisah

498
00:22:15,500 --> 00:22:13,620
it's usually a nice little intimate

499
00:22:18,260 --> 00:22:15,510
conference there's not too many people

500
00:22:19,970 --> 00:22:18,270
and it's really great to be able to talk

501
00:22:21,799 --> 00:22:19,980
was like-minded people from across the

502
00:22:23,539 --> 00:22:21,809
Tasman it certainly is well maybe if we

503
00:22:26,930 --> 00:22:23,549
talk it up we can get it to be a bigger

504
00:22:29,779 --> 00:22:26,940
conference excellent any excuse to go to

505
00:22:45,690 --> 00:22:29,789
New Zealand but for now for now Craig

506
00:22:51,190 --> 00:22:49,030
hey fellow skeptics in Medford here with

507
00:22:53,140 --> 00:22:51,200
Celeste reward your friendly host of

508
00:22:55,090 --> 00:22:53,150
squaring the strange a podcast that

509
00:22:57,460 --> 00:22:55,100
looks at topics ranging from Legends

510
00:22:59,680 --> 00:22:57,470
panics and cryptids beauty myths

511
00:23:01,750 --> 00:22:59,690
psychology and folklore breaking things

512
00:23:03,850 --> 00:23:01,760
down and picking things apart as we

513
00:23:06,190 --> 00:23:03,860
skeptics do we bring a few different

514
00:23:08,620 --> 00:23:06,200
perspectives on things cluster for

515
00:23:09,730 --> 00:23:08,630
example is a witty cartoonist and Ben is

516
00:23:11,980 --> 00:23:09,740
a brilliant writer and longtime

517
00:23:14,410 --> 00:23:11,990
skeptical investigator we don't always

518
00:23:16,450 --> 00:23:14,420
agree but we have fun trying and we

519
00:23:19,300 --> 00:23:16,460
learn new things join us for new topics

520
00:23:21,580 --> 00:23:19,310
every week or two or browse our backlog

521
00:23:24,190 --> 00:23:21,590
of evergreen episodes available on

522
00:23:26,650 --> 00:23:24,200
iTunes and all your podcast feeding

523
00:23:31,950 --> 00:23:26,660
troughs swearing the strange take care

524
00:23:45,580 --> 00:23:42,660
[Music]

525
00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:45,590
now in the last week we learned of the

526
00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:48,850
death of famous Australian TV journalist

527
00:23:56,830 --> 00:23:54,050
Michael Willis II my Quilici now he was

528
00:23:58,960 --> 00:23:56,840
a real giant in the Australian media

529
00:24:01,930 --> 00:23:58,970
scene especially with a television

530
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:01,940
journalism now he is very well

531
00:24:07,630 --> 00:24:05,090
remembered for a 1993 interview he

532
00:24:10,470 --> 00:24:07,640
conducted with the then leader of the

533
00:24:12,790 --> 00:24:10,480
Federal Opposition dr. John Hewson and

534
00:24:14,710 --> 00:24:12,800
his party the Liberal Party were

535
00:24:17,860 --> 00:24:14,720
considering bringing in a goods and

536
00:24:20,110 --> 00:24:17,870
services tax and during a TV interview

537
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:20,120
Willis he asked Hewson a very simple

538
00:24:25,420 --> 00:24:22,610
question if I buy a birthday cake from a

539
00:24:27,930 --> 00:24:25,430
cake shop and GST is in place do I pay

540
00:24:31,780 --> 00:24:27,940
more or less for that birthday cake and

541
00:24:34,120 --> 00:24:31,790
dr. Hewson tied himself in knots trying

542
00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:34,130
to answer this simple question

543
00:24:40,420 --> 00:24:36,770
it was replayed and replayed and

544
00:24:42,310 --> 00:24:40,430
replayed and it's considered by some to

545
00:24:44,740 --> 00:24:42,320
be a turning point in that year's

546
00:24:47,170 --> 00:24:44,750
federal election that party went on to

547
00:24:50,890 --> 00:24:47,180
lose the election now the reason I'm

548
00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:50,900
bringing up my Quilici is that he was

549
00:24:56,950 --> 00:24:54,530
the recipient of a skeptics award for

550
00:24:58,960 --> 00:24:56,960
his journalism and some years later he

551
00:25:01,990 --> 00:24:58,970
was the recipient of another skeptics

552
00:25:03,490 --> 00:25:02,000
award that being the bent spoon award so

553
00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:03,500
we go to the website of Australian

554
00:25:07,630 --> 00:25:06,050
skeptics skeptics Comte you a story

555
00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:07,640
written by Tim Mendham published on the

556
00:25:13,420 --> 00:25:10,810
1st of March 2019 my Quilici

557
00:25:15,270 --> 00:25:13,430
trailblazing journalist skeptics winner

558
00:25:18,479 --> 00:25:15,280
and loser

559
00:25:22,449 --> 00:25:20,889
Australian journalist Mike Willacy has

560
00:25:26,469 --> 00:25:22,459
died after a long battle with throat

561
00:25:28,539 --> 00:25:26,479
cancer as the ABC relates Willis he

562
00:25:31,149 --> 00:25:28,549
became a household name after fronting

563
00:25:34,089 --> 00:25:31,159
the ABCs four corners program for two

564
00:25:36,789 --> 00:25:34,099
years from 1969 and was described as a

565
00:25:38,949 --> 00:25:36,799
trailblazer of Australian journalism he

566
00:25:42,339 --> 00:25:38,959
then left the ABC joining channel nine

567
00:25:43,209 --> 00:25:42,349
in 1971 for his own nightly programme a

568
00:25:46,479 --> 00:25:43,219
Current Affair

569
00:25:49,329 --> 00:25:46,489
but he is also noted as the only person

570
00:25:51,669 --> 00:25:49,339
to win both positive and negative Awards

571
00:25:54,099 --> 00:25:51,679
from Australian skeptics he had a long

572
00:25:56,619 --> 00:25:54,109
largely positive relationship with the

573
00:25:59,709 --> 00:25:56,629
sceptics during the 1980s but less

574
00:26:01,329 --> 00:25:59,719
positive during the 1990s through the

575
00:26:04,179 --> 00:26:01,339
two channel nine current affairs

576
00:26:05,139 --> 00:26:04,189
programs he produced and/or hosted a

577
00:26:07,599 --> 00:26:05,149
Current Affair

578
00:26:09,849 --> 00:26:07,609
and later Willacy he was in on the

579
00:26:13,419 --> 00:26:09,859
ground floor of the skeptical movement

580
00:26:15,699 --> 00:26:13,429
in Australia in 1980 the Willacy program

581
00:26:17,949 --> 00:26:15,709
ran a short piece on the water divining

582
00:26:20,919 --> 00:26:17,959
tests featuring James Randi and dick

583
00:26:22,659 --> 00:26:20,929
Smith it was this programme and the way

584
00:26:24,819 --> 00:26:22,669
the tests were carried out and then

585
00:26:26,889 --> 00:26:24,829
exposed to the public that was the

586
00:26:29,819 --> 00:26:26,899
inspiration for the launch of Australian

587
00:26:32,889 --> 00:26:29,829
skeptics in Melbourne and Sydney in 1981

588
00:26:36,999 --> 00:26:32,899
later programs which involved sceptics

589
00:26:38,859 --> 00:26:37,009
included 1984 the skeptics exposed the

590
00:26:41,729 --> 00:26:38,869
Melbourne and metropolitan Board of

591
00:26:45,579 --> 00:26:41,739
Works which used an American psychic

592
00:26:47,859 --> 00:26:45,589
archaeologist and diviner Karen hunt to

593
00:26:51,539 --> 00:26:47,869
conduct a survey along demolished

594
00:26:54,459 --> 00:26:51,549
buildings that left and quote

595
00:26:57,879 --> 00:26:54,469
electromagnetic photo field in quote

596
00:27:00,369 --> 00:26:57,889
which she could detect with divining

597
00:27:02,619 --> 00:27:00,379
rods hunt used her rods to draw an

598
00:27:05,859 --> 00:27:02,629
alleged reconstruction of the former

599
00:27:08,499 --> 00:27:05,869
farm at the works Historic Park at Point

600
00:27:11,109 --> 00:27:08,509
Cook a reconstruction resembled an

601
00:27:14,349 --> 00:27:11,119
American Midwestern farm of last century

602
00:27:16,449 --> 00:27:14,359
the general manager of the works said

603
00:27:18,189 --> 00:27:16,459
that she was delighted with her findings

604
00:27:20,409 --> 00:27:18,199
Willacy arrange for a satellite

605
00:27:22,509 --> 00:27:20,419
television interview between James siran

606
00:27:24,909 --> 00:27:22,519
the then Secretary of Australian

607
00:27:28,059 --> 00:27:24,919
skeptics and Miss hunt the works was

608
00:27:30,340 --> 00:27:28,069
awarded the bent spoon in 1985 the

609
00:27:34,419 --> 00:27:30,350
Zoological world was stunned by the

610
00:27:37,029 --> 00:27:34,429
discovery of a flat a flying rabbit in

611
00:27:39,460 --> 00:27:37,039
the outer suburbs of Sydney the fine

612
00:27:41,650 --> 00:27:39,470
removed murder and mayhem from the front

613
00:27:43,570 --> 00:27:41,660
pages of Sydney papers and it was also

614
00:27:46,090 --> 00:27:43,580
the lead story on the current affairs

615
00:27:47,919 --> 00:27:46,100
programs hosted by Willacy who went on

616
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:47,929
to call it one of his stories of the

617
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:50,090
year it should be added that his

618
00:27:56,049 --> 00:27:52,210
coverage was totally tongue-in-cheek

619
00:27:58,390 --> 00:27:56,059
also in 1985 five Queensland academics

620
00:28:00,669 --> 00:27:58,400
took the lid off creation science at a

621
00:28:03,490 --> 00:28:00,679
seminar held at the University of

622
00:28:05,289 --> 00:28:03,500
Queensland the seminar was organised by

623
00:28:07,210 --> 00:28:05,299
the Queensland branch of the Australian

624
00:28:10,390 --> 00:28:07,220
skeptics and covered by the Willacy

625
00:28:12,580 --> 00:28:10,400
programme amongst others in 1986

626
00:28:13,810 --> 00:28:12,590
Australia was honoured with a visit by

627
00:28:16,779 --> 00:28:13,820
the Reverend brother

628
00:28:20,140 --> 00:28:16,789
Willard fuller a psychic dentist from

629
00:28:21,789 --> 00:28:20,150
America according to Fuller's wife the

630
00:28:24,430 --> 00:28:21,799
visit brought lots of media attention

631
00:28:27,340 --> 00:28:24,440
the commentary about our healing work

632
00:28:29,020 --> 00:28:27,350
was done by a news program comparable to

633
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:29,030
the 60 minutes program here in the

634
00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:29,450
States

635
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:32,330
meaning Willa seemed close viewing of

636
00:28:36,460 --> 00:28:34,010
the Willacy broadcasts revealed that the

637
00:28:39,220 --> 00:28:36,470
reverence teeth were not exactly in

638
00:28:41,860 --> 00:28:39,230
pristine condition the Findhorn festival

639
00:28:45,430 --> 00:28:41,870
group one knee bent spoon for sponsoring

640
00:28:47,950 --> 00:28:45,440
Fuller's visit in 1987 the Willacy

641
00:28:51,070 --> 00:28:47,960
program conducted tests on racing car

642
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:51,080
driver Peter Brock's polarizer which was

643
00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:53,210
a small box that attached to the fuel

644
00:28:57,970 --> 00:28:55,370
pipe of a car to make it run more

645
00:29:00,730 --> 00:28:57,980
efficiently they used a car that had

646
00:29:02,950 --> 00:29:00,740
travelled 40,000 kilometers after a

647
00:29:06,100 --> 00:29:02,960
polarizer had been personally fitted to

648
00:29:08,409 --> 00:29:06,110
it by Brock neither the car owner nor

649
00:29:11,230 --> 00:29:08,419
the motoring journalist Paul vital and

650
00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:11,240
David Morley could detect any difference

651
00:29:16,180 --> 00:29:13,370
in the performance between the car when

652
00:29:18,340 --> 00:29:16,190
fitted with the polarizer or a day later

653
00:29:21,870 --> 00:29:18,350
after the polarizer had been removed

654
00:29:24,370 --> 00:29:21,880
Roque went on to win the bent spoon in

655
00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:24,380
1987 Willis's company trans media

656
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:27,530
productions won The Skeptical Journalism

657
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:30,890
Award for a program on arugula the show

658
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:33,770
consisted of a confrontation between uri

659
00:29:37,090 --> 00:29:34,250
geller

660
00:29:40,060 --> 00:29:37,100
and Ben Harris a magician and member of

661
00:29:43,980 --> 00:29:40,070
Australian skeptics Ben Harris report on

662
00:29:47,490 --> 00:29:43,990
the event appeared in the skeptic vol 7

663
00:29:49,470 --> 00:29:47,500
number one in 1988 the experience of the

664
00:29:52,740 --> 00:29:49,480
Knowles family in which they were

665
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:52,750
driving across the Nullarbor and as an

666
00:29:57,780 --> 00:29:55,450
aside that is a vast area of desert in

667
00:30:00,600 --> 00:29:57,790
Australia driving across the nullabor

668
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:00,610
when a UFO supposedly attacked their

669
00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:03,490
vehicle and lifted it off the ground was

670
00:30:08,190 --> 00:30:05,770
initially only discussed with the police

671
00:30:09,810 --> 00:30:08,200
but the story leaked to the media the

672
00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:09,820
family were intercepted on their way to

673
00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:13,090
Adelaide by channel 7 Adelaide producer

674
00:30:18,510 --> 00:30:16,090
Frank pang gelo for the Hinch current

675
00:30:20,790 --> 00:30:18,520
affairs programme pang gelo reportedly

676
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:20,800
offered the family five thousand dollars

677
00:30:24,540 --> 00:30:22,690
for an interview on condition they do

678
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:24,550
not discuss the story with any other

679
00:30:28,710 --> 00:30:26,410
media group for three months

680
00:30:31,110 --> 00:30:28,720
pang gelo was later reported to have

681
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:31,120
claimed that the my Quilici program was

682
00:30:35,700 --> 00:30:33,130
not far behind him and the nulls might

683
00:30:38,790 --> 00:30:35,710
have collected $20,000 had they been

684
00:30:41,910 --> 00:30:38,800
more patient 1988 this was the year of

685
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:41,920
the Carlos hoax in which James Randi in

686
00:30:46,919 --> 00:30:44,290
the 60 minutes program set up the media

687
00:30:50,310 --> 00:30:46,929
in Australia with a phony psychic an

688
00:30:52,500 --> 00:30:50,320
oxymoron named Carlos but actually

689
00:30:55,860 --> 00:30:52,510
played by Randy's partner who went by

690
00:30:57,330 --> 00:30:55,870
the name of Jose Alvarez the most

691
00:30:59,910 --> 00:30:57,340
dramatic turn of events however

692
00:31:01,799 --> 00:30:59,920
concerned my Quilici and the channel 9

693
00:31:04,169 --> 00:31:01,809
the head of current affairs Peter Macon

694
00:31:06,630 --> 00:31:04,179
who was also employed by Willis E's

695
00:31:09,660 --> 00:31:06,640
transmedia production company apparently

696
00:31:12,210 --> 00:31:09,670
Macon was in on the scam but did not

697
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:12,220
inform Willacy who was thus led to make

698
00:31:18,810 --> 00:31:15,490
statements later found to be untrue such

699
00:31:20,820 --> 00:31:18,820
as saying that Carlos was big in the

700
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:20,830
United States Willis who was in the u.s.

701
00:31:25,500 --> 00:31:22,690
at the same time the program went to air

702
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:25,510
and was hosting only because normal

703
00:31:31,020 --> 00:31:29,050
hosts Yan event was ill therefore he was

704
00:31:32,850 --> 00:31:31,030
being fed his information from Sydney

705
00:31:35,820 --> 00:31:32,860
which was then transmitted back to

706
00:31:38,310 --> 00:31:35,830
Australia as the skeptics were involved

707
00:31:40,350 --> 00:31:38,320
only on the periphery of the scam it was

708
00:31:43,410 --> 00:31:40,360
felt that the relationship with Willacy

709
00:31:47,190 --> 00:31:43,420
might have been soured due to his being

710
00:31:49,799 --> 00:31:47,200
caught out also in 1988 the Willacy

711
00:31:52,710 --> 00:31:49,809
program was runner-up in the skeptics

712
00:31:53,250 --> 00:31:52,720
journalism award for an expose on a New

713
00:31:57,130 --> 00:31:53,260
Zealand

714
00:31:59,620 --> 00:31:57,140
Colour therapist the Ben spoon

715
00:32:02,500 --> 00:31:59,630
despite the ups and downs of the

716
00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:02,510
relationship it was generally felt that

717
00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:04,370
Willacy had helped the skeptics spread

718
00:32:10,650 --> 00:32:06,890
the word about the failings and outright

719
00:32:14,020 --> 00:32:10,660
cons of the paranormal world it was

720
00:32:16,270 --> 00:32:14,030
disappointing then to see Willacy later

721
00:32:19,210 --> 00:32:16,280
abandoning his own skepticism and

722
00:32:21,940 --> 00:32:19,220
endorsing miraculous apparitions and

723
00:32:26,620 --> 00:32:21,950
manifestations such as the Shroud of

724
00:32:28,630 --> 00:32:26,630
Turin and stigmata in 1999 Willacy was

725
00:32:32,020 --> 00:32:28,640
given the bent spoon award for the

726
00:32:34,299 --> 00:32:32,030
documentary signs from God the program

727
00:32:36,669 --> 00:32:34,309
rehashed a plethora of bleeding and

728
00:32:39,940 --> 00:32:36,679
weeping statues stigmata and other

729
00:32:43,210 --> 00:32:39,950
pseudo religious claptrap as the award

730
00:32:46,060 --> 00:32:43,220
citation read it sought to give this

731
00:32:48,370 --> 00:32:46,070
nonsense a patina of respectability by

732
00:32:50,289 --> 00:32:48,380
consulting various scientists and

733
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:50,299
theologians only to ignore the

734
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:52,730
contributions in favor of sensationalism

735
00:32:57,580 --> 00:32:55,010
despite its claims of skeptical

736
00:32:59,409 --> 00:32:57,590
investigation this show differed in no

737
00:33:03,159 --> 00:32:59,419
significant way to the rash of other

738
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:03,169
nasty millennial doom crying tripe being

739
00:33:08,950 --> 00:33:05,210
pushed down our throats by TV channels

740
00:33:11,110 --> 00:33:08,960
as the calendar rolls along - mm playing

741
00:33:13,419 --> 00:33:11,120
on people's fears might be good for

742
00:33:15,430 --> 00:33:13,429
ratings but it ignores the real harm

743
00:33:17,980 --> 00:33:15,440
that it can do to vulnerable people

744
00:33:20,530 --> 00:33:17,990
whose grasp on reality is in some way

745
00:33:22,810 --> 00:33:20,540
under attack as too often happens after

746
00:33:25,180 --> 00:33:22,820
one of these irresponsible pieces has

747
00:33:27,610 --> 00:33:25,190
been to err Australian skeptics was

748
00:33:29,860 --> 00:33:27,620
contacted by a seriously distressed

749
00:33:31,630 --> 00:33:29,870
woman who had been so disturbed by what

750
00:33:34,270 --> 00:33:31,640
she had seen that she feared for her

751
00:33:37,750 --> 00:33:34,280
sanity we could only tell her that such

752
00:33:41,409 --> 00:33:37,760
programs were junk TV and were designed

753
00:33:44,220 --> 00:33:41,419
to rate and not to inform it was a sad

754
00:33:48,669 --> 00:33:44,230
end to a once productive relationship

755
00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:48,679
now in the mid-2000s around 2006 my

756
00:33:53,770 --> 00:33:51,290
Quilici appeared on a Australian chat

757
00:33:55,750 --> 00:33:53,780
show with Andrew Denton the show was

758
00:33:58,960 --> 00:33:55,760
called enough rope and many Australian

759
00:34:00,760 --> 00:33:58,970
listeners will well remember that series

760
00:34:04,060 --> 00:34:00,770
of interviews for its high standard and

761
00:34:08,889 --> 00:34:04,070
the probing questions asked by Andrew

762
00:34:10,579 --> 00:34:08,899
Denton and this short excerpt from the

763
00:34:13,839 --> 00:34:10,589
program I think illest

764
00:34:17,389 --> 00:34:13,849
Red's part of mic Willis's character

765
00:34:19,940 --> 00:34:17,399
after his religious conversion happened

766
00:34:23,479 --> 00:34:19,950
with a praying to God to save him from

767
00:34:25,039 --> 00:34:23,489
an impending plane crash and then he

768
00:34:27,139 --> 00:34:25,049
went on to do these documentaries about

769
00:34:28,519 --> 00:34:27,149
stigmata and weeping statues and the

770
00:34:31,729 --> 00:34:28,529
shout of train and so on

771
00:34:33,129 --> 00:34:31,739
so here's this short excerpt I think

772
00:34:35,049 --> 00:34:33,139
it's admirable

773
00:34:36,979 --> 00:34:35,059
absolutely what you're trying to

774
00:34:39,950 --> 00:34:36,989
discover for yourself and for other

775
00:34:41,930 --> 00:34:39,960
people I wondered though which is why is

776
00:34:43,729 --> 00:34:41,940
asking about you'll favor bind your

777
00:34:45,889 --> 00:34:43,739
desire to believe why in these

778
00:34:47,569 --> 00:34:45,899
circumstances with the stigmata for

779
00:34:49,190 --> 00:34:47,579
instance with Cartier which you

780
00:34:51,259 --> 00:34:49,200
absolutely believed to be real and and

781
00:34:55,430 --> 00:34:51,269
you've overseen the verification of it

782
00:34:57,969 --> 00:34:55,440
why not hand that over entirely to

783
00:35:00,079 --> 00:34:57,979
people that are carrying any of the

784
00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:00,089
religious or psychological baggage

785
00:35:03,529 --> 00:35:02,130
you're carrying why not hand it over

786
00:35:05,509 --> 00:35:03,539
entirely I know that the American

787
00:35:08,029 --> 00:35:05,519
skeptic James Randi has a standing

788
00:35:10,910 --> 00:35:08,039
million dollar offer to anyone that can

789
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:10,920
prove stigmata why not hand it over to I

790
00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:12,930
don't know a Swiss research and a German

791
00:35:19,700 --> 00:35:15,450
and a American research GRU there's

792
00:35:21,529 --> 00:35:19,710
Randi is a phony I mean he forgets that

793
00:35:24,140 --> 00:35:21,539
he once named me investigative

794
00:35:26,779 --> 00:35:24,150
journalist of the year and sent me a

795
00:35:29,059 --> 00:35:26,789
trophy yeah fortunately I threw it away

796
00:35:31,190 --> 00:35:29,069
I didn't take it seriously but okay put

797
00:35:32,529 --> 00:35:31,200
aside James Randi why not give it to

798
00:35:36,049 --> 00:35:32,539
somebody that's not carrying any

799
00:35:37,910 --> 00:35:36,059
religious strong religious belief -

800
00:35:40,219 --> 00:35:37,920
absolutely no what I was ready to do

801
00:35:43,549 --> 00:35:40,229
that but all the people who criticized

802
00:35:45,529 --> 00:35:43,559
us not one person asked to see the

803
00:35:47,150 --> 00:35:45,539
footage including all the footage they

804
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:47,160
didn't get away and of course it was the

805
00:35:50,989 --> 00:35:49,410
the skeptics who awarded will see not

806
00:35:53,450 --> 00:35:50,999
James Randi but I think it gives you an

807
00:35:56,180 --> 00:35:53,460
idea of his change of mind now the

808
00:35:59,150 --> 00:35:56,190
program he produced and hosted about

809
00:36:01,160 --> 00:35:59,160
signs from God is available on YouTube I

810
00:36:03,229 --> 00:36:01,170
will link to that in the show notes but

811
00:36:05,359 --> 00:36:03,239
farewell my Quilici you will be

812
00:36:07,850 --> 00:36:05,369
remembered in the history of Australian

813
00:36:28,269 --> 00:36:07,860
journalism

814
00:36:35,959 --> 00:36:34,370
- okay colas masala Paola the Dallaire

815
00:36:38,959 --> 00:36:35,969
Moses with other Buenos Aires in

816
00:36:40,819 --> 00:36:38,969
Argentina when the Kucha most podcasts

817
00:36:44,029 --> 00:36:40,829
cochamo mimic a Kucha todo el mundo

818
00:36:46,670 --> 00:36:44,039
cover the skeptic zone ojala pueden

819
00:36:48,469 --> 00:36:46,680
madeira VC Thomas algun dia hace para mo

820
00:36:56,599 --> 00:36:48,479
con nuestra Ricky Sima comida locally

821
00:36:58,489 --> 00:36:56,609
yes Monsieur on tango mientras tanto sig

822
00:37:00,130 --> 00:36:58,499
and if Rotondo de su dosa same analogy

823
00:37:08,170 --> 00:37:00,140
NCI Pentimento resonance

824
00:37:08,180 --> 00:37:22,160
[Music]

825
00:37:26,580 --> 00:37:24,450
skeptics in the pub no main art tonight

826
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:26,590
unfortunately and no Trisha either and

827
00:37:32,220 --> 00:37:30,490
we're just here setting up before I got

828
00:37:33,450 --> 00:37:32,230
Tim minimally editor of the skeptic

829
00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:33,460
magazine Tim tonight's question

830
00:37:38,310 --> 00:37:35,530
tonight's question is about folk

831
00:37:41,460 --> 00:37:38,320
remedies the old things he used to hear

832
00:37:43,859 --> 00:37:41,470
because of my the hopefully fast

833
00:37:45,780 --> 00:37:43,869
disappearing cold have you heard any

834
00:37:49,500 --> 00:37:45,790
good old-fashioned folk remedies in this

835
00:37:51,990 --> 00:37:49,510
vein well of course yeah being of a

836
00:37:53,370 --> 00:37:52,000
certain age and having a mother you

837
00:37:54,810 --> 00:37:53,380
always heard about folk remedies my

838
00:37:56,940 --> 00:37:54,820
favorite is of course she never used it

839
00:37:58,230 --> 00:37:56,950
but yeah rubbing a toad on your warts

840
00:38:01,260 --> 00:37:58,240
it's always a good thing if she get rid

841
00:38:03,690 --> 00:38:01,270
of warts rub rubbing a toad on your on

842
00:38:04,859 --> 00:38:03,700
your wart yes yeah yes

843
00:38:06,060 --> 00:38:04,869
oh it's guaranteed to work you should

844
00:38:09,060 --> 00:38:06,070
try it in fact I have it down here

845
00:38:10,980 --> 00:38:09,070
actually part on that I'm just trying to

846
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:10,990
think ashy yeah I guess the classic is

847
00:38:14,370 --> 00:38:12,850
what take vitamin C before getting a

848
00:38:16,230 --> 00:38:14,380
cold and you won't get to call the so if

849
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:16,240
you've got a cold take vitamin C a

850
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:19,690
minute and that still generally believed

851
00:38:22,530 --> 00:38:21,490
by many people I think absolutely I

852
00:38:24,270 --> 00:38:22,540
think a lot of people still believe it

853
00:38:25,770 --> 00:38:24,280
though Linus Pauling was not who was a

854
00:38:27,870 --> 00:38:25,780
guy who was pronoun promoting matter a

855
00:38:29,670 --> 00:38:27,880
long time ago did some good work on

856
00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:29,680
population issues then did some bad work

857
00:38:35,250 --> 00:38:32,650
on promoting vitamin C good yeah what

858
00:38:39,060 --> 00:38:35,260
else to say sucking an orange before you

859
00:38:40,500 --> 00:38:39,070
drink milk of magnesia what what you

860
00:38:42,450 --> 00:38:40,510
Toby fight remedies mate you got to go

861
00:38:44,340 --> 00:38:42,460
back to the folk right never had milk of

862
00:38:46,590 --> 00:38:44,350
magnesia milk of magnesia was this thing

863
00:38:48,599 --> 00:38:46,600
you used to drink and it would show up

864
00:38:50,580 --> 00:38:48,609
your stomach in the next ray it was

865
00:38:52,020 --> 00:38:50,590
absolutely appalling things would make

866
00:38:53,099 --> 00:38:52,030
you throw up all the time so sucking

867
00:38:55,020 --> 00:38:53,109
gontar into would try and ameliorate

868
00:38:57,780 --> 00:38:55,030
stop you throwing up all over the x-ray

869
00:38:59,370 --> 00:38:57,790
machine I see so we've combined that

870
00:39:02,699 --> 00:38:59,380
with a toad and we're on a winner it was

871
00:39:07,449 --> 00:39:06,039
all right we'll just let me go through

872
00:39:10,359 --> 00:39:07,459
the crowded pub there's only two other

873
00:39:13,630 --> 00:39:10,369
people here folk remedies things from

874
00:39:16,299 --> 00:39:13,640
days of yore that people once we're at

875
00:39:18,069 --> 00:39:16,309
or on what do you think well my dad

876
00:39:22,539 --> 00:39:18,079
always told me when I had a cold to suck

877
00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:22,549
on a lemon yeah zero yeah vitamin C and

878
00:39:25,870 --> 00:39:24,650
I had a teacher once that told me if I

879
00:39:27,729 --> 00:39:25,880
had warts that I didn't want I could

880
00:39:31,959 --> 00:39:27,739
sell them to someone and that would work

881
00:39:35,919 --> 00:39:31,969
I haven't thought of that one definite

882
00:39:38,499 --> 00:39:35,929
thank you very much for your insights so

883
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:38,509
yes we are here early it skeptics in the

884
00:39:43,329 --> 00:39:40,729
pub's first Thursday of the month here

885
00:39:47,289 --> 00:39:43,339
at the Occidental hotel in Sydney and

886
00:39:51,819 --> 00:39:47,299
well soon I'm sure the crowds will will

887
00:39:55,479 --> 00:39:51,829
pile in it's a bit later on in the

888
00:39:57,309 --> 00:39:55,489
evening lots of people turning up so far

889
00:39:59,289 --> 00:39:57,319
Tim you're complaining you want to

890
00:40:01,029 --> 00:39:59,299
change your answer yeah I do actually I

891
00:40:03,759 --> 00:40:01,039
think I think I had consulted with my

892
00:40:06,309 --> 00:40:03,769
scientific people right and they have

893
00:40:07,900 --> 00:40:06,319
told me that I'm an idiot well and

894
00:40:09,999 --> 00:40:07,910
what's what's here

895
00:40:12,370 --> 00:40:10,009
yeah so I'd like to withdraw my earlier

896
00:40:14,799 --> 00:40:12,380
recommendation apparently you can't rub

897
00:40:16,660 --> 00:40:14,809
a toad on a wart to get rid of it you

898
00:40:17,199 --> 00:40:16,670
rubber toad on your finger to give you a

899
00:40:19,150 --> 00:40:17,209
wart

900
00:40:20,140 --> 00:40:19,160
well I thought that was the case but I

901
00:40:22,689 --> 00:40:20,150
thought you could were coming up with

902
00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:22,699
this amazing bit of folk wisdom I didn't

903
00:40:32,799 --> 00:40:30,890
know believe in alternative folk well

904
00:40:35,599 --> 00:40:32,809
I'll leave it at there thank you very

905
00:40:38,479 --> 00:40:35,609
much - no go back into my cage

906
00:40:40,819 --> 00:40:38,489
and this week's question is what old

907
00:40:42,650 --> 00:40:40,829
folk remedies do you remember from when

908
00:40:44,569 --> 00:40:42,660
you were younger that maybe your

909
00:40:47,089 --> 00:40:44,579
grandparents too told you would work

910
00:40:49,579 --> 00:40:47,099
mom you supposed to get ear aches a lot

911
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:49,589
and mom used to heat the olive oil and

912
00:40:54,709 --> 00:40:52,650
tip it into my ear hot olive oil in the

913
00:40:57,380 --> 00:40:54,719
year just to heat it heat it on a

914
00:40:59,749 --> 00:40:57,390
teaspoon and tip it into my ear and then

915
00:41:02,029 --> 00:40:59,759
plug it up and then I'd go to sleep and

916
00:41:05,420 --> 00:41:02,039
hopefully whatever it was in there would

917
00:41:06,529 --> 00:41:05,430
come out oh that's that's an odd one I

918
00:41:07,549 --> 00:41:06,539
haven't heard that one before do you

919
00:41:08,839 --> 00:41:07,559
remember if it worked

920
00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:08,849
I don't know but I'm pretty sure I

921
00:41:15,739 --> 00:41:12,450
probably needed grommets you know but we

922
00:41:17,779 --> 00:41:15,749
never went to the doctor back then it

923
00:41:20,539 --> 00:41:17,789
wasn't affordable it exists pre-medicare

924
00:41:22,359 --> 00:41:20,549
oh so we just didn't go the doctor and

925
00:41:24,499 --> 00:41:22,369
there were that's what we did instead

926
00:41:28,219 --> 00:41:24,509
that's a new one on me thank you very

927
00:41:28,959 --> 00:41:28,229
much yeah this is a bit less funny all

928
00:41:33,380 --> 00:41:28,969
right

929
00:41:35,089 --> 00:41:33,390
apparently in Indonesia some people

930
00:41:38,150 --> 00:41:35,099
believe that the electric shocks that

931
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:38,160
you can get from a railroad track can

932
00:41:42,439 --> 00:41:40,650
have curative properties so it says

933
00:41:44,479 --> 00:41:42,449
Indonesians with ailments ranging from a

934
00:41:46,980 --> 00:41:44,489
cold or flu to cancer can be seen laying

935
00:41:49,950 --> 00:41:46,990
on railroad tracks to get the shots

936
00:41:54,460 --> 00:41:49,960
yeah I know I told you it was less funny

937
00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:54,470
well that's a new one on me here's what

938
00:41:58,000 --> 00:41:55,970
we haven't heard before Lara what have

939
00:42:01,480 --> 00:41:58,010
you discovered there so apparently if

940
00:42:03,130 --> 00:42:01,490
you have a stomach ulcer what you should

941
00:42:05,230 --> 00:42:03,140
do before you put your socks and your

942
00:42:06,730 --> 00:42:05,240
shoes on in the morning you swab the

943
00:42:11,740 --> 00:42:06,740
soles of your feet with apple cider

944
00:42:13,900 --> 00:42:11,750
vinegar let it dry then you put your

945
00:42:17,530 --> 00:42:13,910
Ware on and then you repeat the process

946
00:42:18,610 --> 00:42:17,540
before dinner and your feet smell

947
00:42:23,350 --> 00:42:18,620
wonderful

948
00:42:25,180 --> 00:42:23,360
maybe vinegar now this is the best one

949
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:25,190
I've heard all night what was that oh my

950
00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:27,410
dad also said in addition to or separate

951
00:42:31,540 --> 00:42:29,570
from sucking on a lemon but when you

952
00:42:33,550 --> 00:42:31,550
have a bad cold or flu you would goggle

953
00:42:35,590 --> 00:42:33,560
some scotch and I would just kill the

954
00:42:45,190 --> 00:42:35,600
cold in your I'm gonna try this tonight

955
00:42:50,870 --> 00:42:47,780
good evening good evening now tonight's

956
00:42:52,910 --> 00:42:50,880
question is what folk remedies do you

957
00:42:54,799 --> 00:42:52,920
remember from when you were young this

958
00:42:58,609 --> 00:42:54,809
is a cure for this take this

959
00:43:00,730 --> 00:42:58,619
this can help for this try to cast my

960
00:43:05,599 --> 00:43:00,740
mind back I'm sure my mother had the odd

961
00:43:08,990 --> 00:43:05,609
the odd remedy I remember when I had the

962
00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:09,000
measles yeah it wasn't exactly a folk

963
00:43:14,660 --> 00:43:11,490
remedy it was a symptomatic remedy my

964
00:43:17,109 --> 00:43:14,670
mother set with me for hours on end as I

965
00:43:20,059 --> 00:43:17,119
was in that darkened room rubbing

966
00:43:23,270 --> 00:43:20,069
calamine lotion or something of that

967
00:43:26,299 --> 00:43:23,280
sort on me and it simply made the

968
00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:26,309
painless although I suspect that my in

969
00:43:30,079 --> 00:43:28,290
the presence of my mother with me had a

970
00:43:31,789 --> 00:43:30,089
lot to do with it yeah and I think

971
00:43:36,049 --> 00:43:31,799
that's that's been used for years

972
00:43:41,329 --> 00:43:36,059
calamine lotion I think yeah it's a nice

973
00:43:44,329 --> 00:43:41,339
memory thank you so apparently if you

974
00:43:47,599 --> 00:43:44,339
put a urine on acne it gets rid of the

975
00:43:50,240 --> 00:43:47,609
acne or any infection people are putting

976
00:43:52,970 --> 00:43:50,250
in their eye and they they seem to think

977
00:43:54,260 --> 00:43:52,980
that the more aged it is the better and

978
00:43:55,430 --> 00:43:54,270
then other people on Facebook are

979
00:43:56,720 --> 00:43:55,440
telling them no that's probably

980
00:43:59,630 --> 00:43:56,730
something you need to get checked out by

981
00:44:02,829 --> 00:43:59,640
the doctor it's like making it worse the

982
00:44:05,270 --> 00:44:02,839
skeptic zone podcast is not recommended

983
00:44:07,940 --> 00:44:05,280
no don't put urine on anything

984
00:44:10,690 --> 00:44:07,950
no what about jellyfish sting the zero

985
00:44:13,870 --> 00:44:10,700
and work for jellyfish stings

986
00:44:15,220 --> 00:44:13,880
I heard vinegar but that and now I've

987
00:44:22,540 --> 00:44:15,230
heard that you don't put vinegar on

988
00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:22,550
jellies and fish stinks I need to go

989
00:44:29,860 --> 00:44:24,170
swimming with vinegar you probably the

990
00:44:31,210 --> 00:44:29,870
same yourself no actually no the

991
00:44:32,950 --> 00:44:31,220
challenge coordinator from the state's

992
00:44:37,170 --> 00:44:32,960
get busy and Bryce not do you remember

993
00:44:39,490 --> 00:44:37,180
from long time ago folk remedies in such

994
00:44:42,460 --> 00:44:39,500
okay well in our family I don't think we

995
00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:42,470
had too many folk remedies at least if

996
00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:44,690
we were suspected of having a bowel

997
00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:48,170
problem we were given castor oil is that

998
00:44:54,250 --> 00:44:50,330
a fact remedy is that legitimate it

999
00:44:56,650 --> 00:44:54,260
certainly worked anyways well maybe it's

1000
00:44:58,450 --> 00:44:56,660
a bit of both I've heard of castor oil

1001
00:45:01,510 --> 00:44:58,460
and I've never had it and from what I

1002
00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:01,520
understand it's vile yes it is very

1003
00:45:07,120 --> 00:45:04,850
unpleasant to swallow yes so I'm not

1004
00:45:09,940 --> 00:45:07,130
sure that I can qualify with the folk

1005
00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:09,950
remedy there maybe it is and maybe it

1006
00:45:12,660 --> 00:45:11,330
isn't that's interesting Thank You Ian

1007
00:45:22,070 --> 00:45:12,670
thanks

1008
00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:22,080
[Music]

1009
00:45:26,460 --> 00:45:24,970
are you tired of going out and not being

1010
00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:26,470
able to find the kind of music that you

1011
00:45:32,130 --> 00:45:30,370
like to dance to like that well you need

1012
00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:32,140
to comes with Maynard's Love Shack

1013
00:45:37,290 --> 00:45:34,210
next Saturday night at the red bar

1014
00:45:39,420 --> 00:45:37,300
upstairs at 36 lead Point Road in bleep

1015
00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:39,430
in Sydney we'll be going crazy there

1016
00:45:43,290 --> 00:45:41,410
I'll be supported by the legendary Lance

1017
00:45:54,900 --> 00:45:43,300
Leppard as I play the kind of music you

1018
00:45:58,650 --> 00:45:56,460
but if you want to you can always dance

1019
00:46:00,269 --> 00:45:58,660
the card stuff you like actually might

1020
00:46:01,980 --> 00:46:00,279
play that to Nick said that it's not too

1021
00:46:04,170 --> 00:46:01,990
bad then innit

1022
00:46:06,450 --> 00:46:04,180
that's main arms Love Shack more details

1023
00:46:09,420 --> 00:46:06,460
on the very very front page of main and

1024
00:46:11,789 --> 00:46:09,430
calm dodo you see their next that day

1025
00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:11,799
can skip the extents another can drink

1026
00:46:15,029 --> 00:46:13,450
well can skeptics dance

1027
00:46:17,640 --> 00:46:15,039
I don't know I'm full of incertitude

1028
00:46:20,490 --> 00:46:17,650
what's that mean its orders right that

1029
00:46:22,410 --> 00:46:20,500
in certitude except slightly rude man

1030
00:46:25,499 --> 00:46:22,420
that's Love Shack next said there 9h

1031
00:46:27,690 --> 00:46:25,509
midnight 36 upstairs at the red bar

1032
00:46:33,900 --> 00:46:27,700
bleep on trading grave see you there and

1033
00:46:33,910 --> 00:46:41,319
[Music]

1034
00:46:47,180 --> 00:46:43,789
thank you for listening to the skeptic

1035
00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:47,190
zone now if you are in Berkeley in

1036
00:46:53,989 --> 00:46:50,930
California next week on the fourteenth

1037
00:46:56,630 --> 00:46:53,999
Thursday the 14th maybe you can come

1038
00:46:58,519 --> 00:46:56,640
along and see my talk which is the talk

1039
00:47:01,999 --> 00:46:58,529
I gave here in Sydney at skeptics in the

1040
00:47:04,309 --> 00:47:02,009
pub Australia's psychic detectives just

1041
00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:04,319
how many crimes have so-called psychic

1042
00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:06,690
detectives solved in Australia how do

1043
00:47:11,359 --> 00:47:09,210
their claims stack up to results do

1044
00:47:13,489 --> 00:47:11,369
police really call upon the paranormal

1045
00:47:16,370 --> 00:47:13,499
to find missing people join Australian

1046
00:47:18,859 --> 00:47:16,380
sceptic Richard Saunders as he examines

1047
00:47:21,650 --> 00:47:18,869
some famous crimes and the alleged

1048
00:47:23,239 --> 00:47:21,660
supernatural connection also Richard

1049
00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:23,249
will give an overview of the world's

1050
00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:25,890
most comprehensive study into psychic

1051
00:47:33,140 --> 00:47:28,170
predictions for more information just

1052
00:47:35,359 --> 00:47:33,150
head to be a skeptics dot org and that

1053
00:47:37,609 --> 00:47:35,369
means that next week's show and shows

1054
00:47:40,789 --> 00:47:37,619
coming out for a few weeks after that

1055
00:47:43,969 --> 00:47:40,799
will be from California always good to

1056
00:47:46,190 --> 00:47:43,979
catch up with people like dr. eugenie

1057
00:47:48,769 --> 00:47:46,200
Scott and my friend Marielle who works

1058
00:47:50,690 --> 00:47:48,779
at Wikimedia thank you to all those

1059
00:47:53,359 --> 00:47:50,700
people who continue to support the show

1060
00:47:57,079 --> 00:47:53,369
financially at skeptic zone TV via

1061
00:47:59,839 --> 00:47:57,089
patreon or PayPal and once again don't

1062
00:48:02,719 --> 00:47:59,849
forget if you're in Sydney next Saturday

1063
00:48:05,059 --> 00:48:02,729
to go along to see Maynard's gig and

1064
00:48:06,529 --> 00:48:05,069
glebe and I'm very sorry I won't be

1065
00:48:08,509 --> 00:48:06,539
there simply because I'll be on the

1066
00:48:10,549 --> 00:48:08,519
other side of the planet but for this

1067
00:48:17,150 --> 00:48:10,559
week this is Richard Saunders signing

1068
00:48:19,219 --> 00:48:17,160
off from Sydney Australia you've been

1069
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:19,229
listening to the sceptic Zone podcast

1070
00:48:27,049 --> 00:48:23,130
please visit our website at WWF Tech's

1071
00:48:29,029 --> 00:48:27,059
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1072
00:48:33,079 --> 00:48:29,039
access the back catalogue of episodes

1073
00:48:35,019 --> 00:48:33,089
going back to 2008 you can follow the

1074
00:48:38,599 --> 00:48:35,029
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1075
00:48:40,980 --> 00:48:38,609
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1076
00:48:43,260 --> 00:48:40,990
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1077
00:48:45,690 --> 00:48:43,270
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1078
00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:45,700
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1079
00:48:50,520 --> 00:48:47,890
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1080
00:48:52,349 --> 00:48:50,530
independent production reviews and

1081
00:48:54,599 --> 00:48:52,359
opinions expressed on the sceptic zone

1082
00:48:57,150 --> 00:48:54,609
are not necessarily those of Australian

1083
00:48:58,010 --> 00:48:57,160
skeptics or any other skeptical

1084
00:49:08,660 --> 00:48:58,020
organization

1085
00:49:12,630 --> 00:49:10,980
hello our people who listen after the

1086
00:49:15,120 --> 00:49:12,640
music haven't done this for a week or

1087
00:49:18,359 --> 00:49:15,130
two I think don't think mi anyway you

1088
00:49:20,250 --> 00:49:18,369
react inside a die we're going to roll

1089
00:49:20,930 --> 00:49:20,260
it three times for those people new to

1090
00:49:24,839 --> 00:49:20,940
this

1091
00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:24,849
it's a psychic test it's a bit of fun

1092
00:49:27,900 --> 00:49:26,290
that's what it is but you know you can

1093
00:49:30,329 --> 00:49:27,910
pretend it's a test of your psychic

1094
00:49:33,180 --> 00:49:30,339
ability I wonder if there's anybody out

1095
00:49:34,950 --> 00:49:33,190
there over though I guess almost a year

1096
00:49:36,390 --> 00:49:34,960
I've been doing this on and off then I

1097
00:49:39,660 --> 00:49:36,400
forgot all three numbers

1098
00:49:42,359 --> 00:49:39,670
I guess that's possible unlikely but

1099
00:49:42,870 --> 00:49:42,369
possible let's go I'm gonna roll this

1100
00:49:45,180 --> 00:49:42,880
dive

1101
00:49:50,339 --> 00:49:45,190
use your psychic powers it's a number

1102
00:49:56,990 --> 00:49:50,349
from one to ten here we go first number

1103
00:50:02,370 --> 00:49:57,000
is one first number is one

1104
00:50:10,770 --> 00:50:02,380
write that down one second number here

1105
00:50:16,910 --> 00:50:10,780
we go seven one and seven one seven and

1106
00:50:21,450 --> 00:50:16,920
the last number what's that number six